tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post3939825993070243605..comments2023-09-23T11:16:00.352+02:00Comments on The Franco-American Flophouse has moved: A Review of the France/US FATCA IGAVictoria FERAUGEhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16319699673885400472noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-74053898019050215442016-07-13T16:36:12.646+02:002016-07-13T16:36:12.646+02:00Oh no this is bad news for me. I am a US citizen ...Oh no this is bad news for me. I am a US citizen and starting a renovation on a property in Provence. I plan on opening a bank account , compte non-resident in October . I will need this to pay utilities as well as insurance and wire money over for construction costs . Is there a bank more friendly to US citizens that are non- resident? I will not want to keep more that 50K in the account. My brother purchased an apartment in Paris last year and told me of this problem . He said for me to ask the notaire I am using to help me. This is how he was able to open his checking account in Paris.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07679241687528051909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-87218866212887119062016-01-21T12:17:00.271+01:002016-01-21T12:17:00.271+01:00"The French bank (not the French or US govern..."The French bank (not the French or US government mind you) can elect not to report those individuals born in the US (US citizens under US law) if the following applies: ...<br />2. Proof of citizenship or nationality in a country other than the United States;<br />..."<br /><br />Does this mean that as a dual French American citizen the bank can choose not to report me? If so I need to print out the legal information and bring it to the bank with me so I can open a bank account again! Thank you for the information!<br /><br />I was kicked out from the BNP last year after they realized I was an American citizen. Unfortunately, I was abroad for a project and was not able to fly back to France to open a bank account right away so I spent several months bankless. I finally flew back, tried to open a bank account at a bank I was confident would accept me (I already know Americans with bank accounts there), only to receive a refusal letter a month later. Fast forward to today, 6 months later, and I am still bankless because I am still abroad with no time to return to France and open an account. Frustrating. <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-27023228405470113072015-10-04T19:46:29.299+02:002015-10-04T19:46:29.299+02:00@Victoria
From what I can tell most people seem to...@Victoria<br />From what I can tell most people seem to assume the IRS reciprocates by getting lists of non-resident accounts from US banks, and as you noted, the IGA is vague as to how they would go about this. Do you have any news on this?<br />I wonder if the IRS might be circumventing this issue in part, and instead might be <br />supplying the French with US bank account data taken from the tax forms filed by US citizens abroad (ie schedule B of your 1040). <br />adriennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-59186800756294324022015-10-01T20:01:19.422+02:002015-10-01T20:01:19.422+02:00Georges, if you are a French citizen, you might wa...Georges, if you are a French citizen, you might want to use the French penal code that specifically forbids refusal to provide a service on the basis of nationality<br />Code Pénal 225-1 and 225-2 seem to fit. I am not a lawyer but you might want to play around witht this (for fun)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-1625398350266624142015-09-23T22:16:28.886+02:002015-09-23T22:16:28.886+02:00My bank in France has decided not to sign on, and ...My bank in France has decided not to sign on, and has notified me that they will be closing my account, even though it is way below the $50K reporting limit. Now I have to find another bank that will let me open an account in France without travelling there.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09377234257114612761noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-2621939677745611192014-08-16T16:09:10.674+02:002014-08-16T16:09:10.674+02:00The World Government has come to power. The World Government has come to power. paul-harvey du boishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12266227436247436758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-42505114656618863652014-08-16T16:08:11.432+02:002014-08-16T16:08:11.432+02:00The World Governement has arrived!The World Governement has arrived!paul-harvey du boishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12266227436247436758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-24980655563730584202014-06-09T23:08:19.035+02:002014-06-09T23:08:19.035+02:00IRS Commissioner recognizes excessive burden on th...IRS Commissioner recognizes excessive burden on the “non-willful non-compliant’<br /><br />http://www.aaro.org/fatca/448-lucyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-63047109249878399342014-04-29T08:04:05.541+02:002014-04-29T08:04:05.541+02:00@Anonymous, A very good analysis. Yes, the langu...@Anonymous, A very good analysis. Yes, the language seems to say they can report all accounts if they choose. I suspect some will.<br /><br />It's just a whole lot easier to sort and report based on one criteria as opposed to many. A lot simpler to just add a checkbox "US Person" as opposed to "US Person" if accounts =/> 50,000 USD (and that must be converted from Euros according to a fluctuating exchange rate).<br /><br />What a mess. I wouldn't do it and I suspect that the banks aren't going to go through that hassle either....Victoria FERAUGEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16319699673885400472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-57597305756697692522014-04-28T16:22:19.201+02:002014-04-28T16:22:19.201+02:00About “Identifying US Reportable Accounts” and the...About “Identifying US Reportable Accounts” and the 50,000 USD reporting threshold: <br /><br />(FATCA Agreement, page 33): “Unless the Reporting French Financial Institution elects otherwise, either with respect to all New Individual Accounts or, separately, with respect to any clearly identified group of such accounts, where the implementing rules in France provide for such an election, the following New Individual Accounts are not required to be reviewed, identified, or reported as U.S. Reportable Accounts: <br />1. A Depository Account unless the account balance exceeds $50,000 “<br /><br />Let's consider the wording of this sentence : “Unless the Reporting French Financial Institution elects otherwise…. where the implementing rules in France provide for such an election”.<br /><br />Could this mean that, if "French implementing rules" allow it, Banks could elect to report every account (with US indicia), even if below the 50000 $ treshold ? <br />After doing some research, the answer might be “YES”<br />It is a matter of what will be the “implementing rules” France decides on (if any).<br />Example: in New Zealand Inland revenue website (http://taxpolicy.ird.govt.nz/publications/2013-commentary-arearm/fatca), amendments to the IGA have been made to specifically address this issue:<br />“In the context of the IGA, the Government is of the view that only accounts that are actually required to be reported on should be submitted to Inland Revenue. In this regard, for example, paragraph II.A of Annex 1 of the model IGA contemplates that a person can elect to report on accounts even if they are below the reporting threshold set out in the IGA. This election can only be made when the implementing rules provide for this election. The effect of section 185F(6) and (7) is that the implementing rules will not provide for such an election – this also applies to other similar “low value threshold” elections contained in the model IGA. Therefore making the choice to report on all accounts below the threshold is not a “permitted choice” for the purposes of the proposed legislation.<br />Example<br />A financial institution has nine pre-existing depository accounts held by “US persons” that are individuals. Three of those accounts would be reportable except they have a balance of less than US$50,000, with the others having balances above that threshold. The financial institution does not have the option of reporting on all nine accounts, it must only report on the six that exceed the minimum threshold set out in the model IGA.<br /><br />FYI: Some countries published their implementing rules for FATCA already and most can be found online (cf. New Zealand). Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-37799726684819237682014-01-17T10:03:24.058+01:002014-01-17T10:03:24.058+01:00Just come across this. Several points of clarity....Just come across this. Several points of clarity. There are only two model agreements for an IGA - model 1 where the financial institutions report to their own authorities(the majority including France), and Model 2 where they report directly to the IRS(e.g. Switzerland). In both cases there are workarounds for data privacy conflicts, with or without explicit consent from the account holder depending on local law. In both cases the local law is expected to be amended to bypass any current legal obstacles to this reporting. In model 1 - by enacting law changes to make this reporting compulsory to the local government - there is no possibility of it conflicting with local law as it becomes it, and the reporting is to the local tax agency. In Model 2 e.g. Switzerland, the Financial Institutions are required to obtain secrecy waivers from their clients - which is already true if the clients are US persons investing in US investments.<br /><br />In both models there is a most favoured clause which means that any changes to a model IGA, signed subsequently, that make it less onerous will be assumed to have been in all other signed agreements. The main difference between IGAs for different countries is annex II which lists exempt organisations and products, which obviously varies country to country.<br />As far as the banks determining US citizenship is concerned they DO NOT have a choice. They must search for the indicia as listed by yourself, and where they are found, they must presume that the account is reportable unless the account holder proves othwerwise on request. No institution will choose to report accounts without first requesting proof one way or the other from the account holder. <br />If you were born in the US, the default position of the US law is that you ARE an US citizen unless you can prove otherwise. The main acceptable proof is the CLN, although the regulation and IGA also mentions a reasonable explanation of why you haven't got one, or didn't take up US citizenship. It is not clear what is reasonable here...<br />The important point though is that presence of 'indicia' is a prompt to obtain proof of US status, not absolute proof of such.<br />Finally, yes - each government has to make changes to their own law to make the promises made in the IGA legally binding on Financial Institutions in their own jurisdiction. The agreements are in fact agreements to change the law on each side. Local law cannot be changed by signing agreements with other governments or agencies. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-10883172594828318792013-11-26T01:07:57.104+01:002013-11-26T01:07:57.104+01:00FATCA FAQs instructional video:
http://www.youtu...FATCA FAQs instructional video:<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-EVF7CZt_w<br /><br />'FATCA Explained in 4 Minutes...' <br /><br />Somebody send this to the Treasury and State Department. <br /><br />This is how we see the US.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-86860394493896405882013-11-23T23:25:17.214+01:002013-11-23T23:25:17.214+01:00The French IGA looks very similar to the UK IGA. &...The French IGA looks very similar to the UK IGA. <50,000 USD then the bank does not have to report to HMRC. <br /><br />I can't believe the HMRC is going to be charging full-steam ahead with this in January. We've had austerity, cuts, etc less people in public sector doing the same job. The staff at HMRC aren't paid by the USG. I would imagine that the FATCA-related work would be very much on the back burner.Patricknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-41951873981672219132013-11-21T17:21:47.957+01:002013-11-21T17:21:47.957+01:00And I hope this Responsible Officer liability issu...And I hope this Responsible Officer liability issue torments the Happy Compliance collaborators in Financial institutions who have been working furtively behind the scenes to manoeuvre FATCA IGAs into place in Canada and elsewhere:<br /><br />http://www.advisor.ca/tax/tax-news/whos-on-the-hook-for-fatca-136765<br /><br />badgerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-18657572208744546792013-11-21T17:16:20.412+01:002013-11-21T17:16:20.412+01:00I also found this quite interesting: The Happy Com...I also found this quite interesting: The Happy Compliance video on how to ferret out and expose those with US 'indicia'.<br /><br />http://fatca.thomsonreuters.com/resources/media-library/identity-for-fatca/<br /><br />badgerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-5854094307190924612013-11-20T08:41:27.341+01:002013-11-20T08:41:27.341+01:00@badger, Ah, thank you. That is very useful indee...@badger, Ah, thank you. That is very useful indeed. Deserves its own post, I think.Victoria FERAUGEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16319699673885400472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-49784471679578565102013-11-19T20:51:03.650+01:002013-11-19T20:51:03.650+01:00This might help with the Review re France, and als...This might help with the Review re France, and also includes Japan;<br /><br />'Cumulative List of Non-US Pension Funds Exempted by<br />FATCA Intergovernmental Agreements (IGAs)'<br /><br />http://www.groom.com/media/publication/1224_Cumulative%20List%20of%20Non_US_Pension_Funds_Exempted_by_FATCA_Intergovernmental_Agreements_IGAs_November_2013.pdf<br /><br />badgerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-53737186465339413702013-11-19T18:51:30.614+01:002013-11-19T18:51:30.614+01:00@anonymous, That would be wonderful! Thank you. ...@anonymous, That would be wonderful! Thank you. Next weekish is perfect. It would be so useful to have another IGA to compare.<br /><br />@anonymous, Yep, you're right and the "and" makes all the difference. Still it's that "reasonable explanation" that introduces a pretty serious loophole. I don\t see a definition anywhere of what constitutes an acceptable excuse for not having a CLN. So what is a bank supposed to do with that? Read up on all the twists and turns and intricacies of US citizenship law so they can make a detemination? No way. Hell, there are people here I meet who think I lost my US citizenship when I married my French husband and moved here. :-) The banks will do what is easiest and the least trouble and that will be to accept anything that sounds remotely plausible. That's my take on it. But perhaps there will be more guidance given to the banks and this will change.<br /><br />@Ellen, So good to talk to you and thanks for circuclating the post.<br /><br />And a question about the next step: does parliament have to ratify? Good question - let's check it out.... Victoria FERAUGEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16319699673885400472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-9905104481452880972013-11-19T10:39:36.902+01:002013-11-19T10:39:36.902+01:00Thanks so much for this summary! I'm still loo...Thanks so much for this summary! I'm still looking for the French version to make sure they say the same thing. (Somehow, I have become wary.)<br />I think you've seen that I've shared the facebook link pretty widely. <br />I was sorry not to see you yesterday evening. I'll try to call you around lunch time.Ellen Lebellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01929639076042070115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-80021812384739965772013-11-19T06:58:05.552+01:002013-11-19T06:58:05.552+01:00Victoria
Thanks for your review.
I don't know...Victoria<br />Thanks for your review.<br /><br />I don't know if there are multiple versions circulating of the French IGA. I have copied Annex I, Paragraph B.4.a. 1 to 4 of the version I have below. Note the "and" at the end of subparagraph a.2. I would interpret this as meaning that for anyone with a US place of birth BOTH a non-US passport AND a CLN must be provided unless a reasonable explanation for not having a CLN is given. It will be interesting to see how this is written in the French version of the IGA and the accompanying French guidelines.<br /><br />If I understand correctly, this IGA must now be submitted to the Senate and the Assemblée Nationale for ratification?<br /><br />---------<br /><br />Where the Account Holder information unambiguously<br />indicates a<br />U.S. place of birth<br />, the Reporting French Financial<br />Institution obtains, or has previously reviewed and maintains a<br />record of:<br />(1)<br />A self<br />-<br />certification that the Account Holder is neither<br />a U.S. citizen nor a U.S. resident for tax purposes (which<br />may be on an IRS Form W<br />-<br />8 or other similar agreed form);<br />(2)<br />A non<br />-<br />U.S. passport or other government<br />-<br />issued<br />identification evidencing the Acco<br />unt Holder’s citizenship<br />or nationality in a country other than the United States;<br />and<br />(3)<br />A copy of the Account Holder’s Certificate of Loss<br />of Nationality of the United States or a reasonable<br />explanation of:<br />(a)<br />The reason the Account Holder does not have<br />suc<br />h a certificate despite relinquishing U.S.<br />citizenship;<br />or<br />(b)<br />The reason the Account Holder did not obtain<br />U.S. citizenship at birthAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-1123418219798265622013-11-19T06:22:00.757+01:002013-11-19T06:22:00.757+01:00Hi Victoria,
"@anonymous, Cool! Would you li...Hi Victoria,<br /><br />"@anonymous, Cool! Would you like to do a guest post on the Japan one? It would be great to have reviews of both the model I and model II"<br /><br />Sure, though I would need some time to read it more carefully, and my schedule is a bit impacted at the moment. Maybe next week-ish?<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-7950326606224021892013-11-19T06:00:48.071+01:002013-11-19T06:00:48.071+01:00@Loic, It is confusing, isn't it? Now if you...@Loic, It is confusing, isn't it? Now if you and I are confused, I have to wonder if there isn't going to be a lot of confusion at the banks. Between the must report and the optional reporting, the ambiguous English and so on you need a lawyer to really understand every nuance. <br /><br />@anonymous, I looked again and the IGA does not say ALL but perhaps it's implied? So self-certification plus a non-US passport and an simple explanation for why one doesn't have a CLN. And frankly since the banks are not citizenship experts just tell them you lost US citizenship when you became French and the inefficient American bureaucracy isn't efficient enough to issue you a CLN on time (or something like that).<br /><br />@YesWehave no bananas, Two readings and the better part of a day. I was surprised that the list of exempt products was so long. Yep, the livret A is exempt and the PEL and even the employee savings accounts that you get through your company.<br />Yes, France does have her own foreign bank accoutn reporting similar to the FBAR.<br /><br />@anonymous, Cool! Would you like to do a guest post on the Japan one? It would be great to have reviews of both the model I and model II<br /><br /><br />Victoria FERAUGEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16319699673885400472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-87047612109474293772013-11-19T05:23:21.748+01:002013-11-19T05:23:21.748+01:00Your article inspired me to look at the US-Japan I...Your article inspired me to look at the US-Japan IGA, which was signed last June. It is Model 2, meaning Japanese financial institutions report directly to the IRS. Interestingly, the number of institutions that are not required to report seems fairly large: <br />1) "Local banks," meaning those with more than 98% of deposits being held by residents of Japan (this has to be the majority of the banks, given that they will not open accounts for non-residents). Note that Japanese tax on interest in bank accounts is automatically withheld.<br />2) ISA accounts (sort of like an IRA, but more limited in term).<br />3) Specified Accounts -- ordinary brokerage accounts which automatically calculate and withhold all Japanese taxes due.<br /><br />None of these are good vehicles for tax evasion, of course. Surprisingly, the US side seems to have actually grasped this fact.<br /><br />Of course, Japan gets nothing in return from the US, beyond a promise to continue responding to specific requests, as already done under the tax treaty. This is irksome, but perhaps was the trade-off for exempting what looks to be a large fraction of the accounts that ordinary people hold, and for letting the Japanese government stay out of the mechanics of reporting.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-81172384193480565252013-11-18T23:49:51.152+01:002013-11-18T23:49:51.152+01:00Victoria, I can't even imagine how long this a...Victoria, I can't even imagine how long this all took you to research ! One thing still perplexes me. From what I'd read on reportable accounts, I never understood that the Livret A, Dévelopment Durable or others were exempt from reporting since they provide interest. This may need to be cleared up. Also, if the $50,000 limit on accounts reportable by French banks is really the case, it would be quite simple for those who have more to split it among different banks. This would seem too good to be true as a way to get around being "snitched on". <br />As far as what accounts U.S. banks would have to report to France, it seems that non-interest-bearing accounts would not be reported. Yet France has a stiff law requiring all foreign bank accounts, even non-interest-bearing, to be reported on French tax returns. So how does this all square ?YesWeHaveNoBananasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-29641380006062857332013-11-18T22:20:54.051+01:002013-11-18T22:20:54.051+01:00" What the IGA seems to say is that anyone wh..." What the IGA seems to say is that anyone who can produce a non-US passport gets a pass. Yes, that would effectively eliminate the reporting on a quite a few US citizens."<br /><br />Unambiguous US Place of Birth: <br />You might want to check the IGA, does it contain the word "ALL", as in the financial institution must maintain records of "ALL of the following". (The 4th one is an alternative to the 3rd). In that case, individuals with a US place a birth who have a non-US passport are NOT exempt.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com