tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post210228534853635977..comments2023-09-23T11:16:00.352+02:00Comments on The Franco-American Flophouse has moved: American Citizenship - a Cost Benefit AnalysisVictoria FERAUGEhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16319699673885400472noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-68505531384388075172014-06-17T23:53:13.412+02:002014-06-17T23:53:13.412+02:00Great post, Victoria.
Maybe it is time for a US ci...Great post, Victoria.<br />Maybe it is time for a US citizen residing on US soil to weigh in.<br />I have been filing income tax returns since I was a teenager. So that is roughly 35 years. In every subsequent year, the forms seem more numerous and instructions less understandable. I think of the income tax as the means by which the US guv seeks to intrude into our personal lives and impose their preferences upon us. Why should I potentially pay less in taxes because I paid mortgage interest?<br />Two recent events, the NSA surveillance via Snowden and the IRS denial/delay of approval for Tea Party organizations have convinced me that those in power (regardless of party affiliation) are interested only in enhancing their own power. "Freedom" has become the shiny object that officials use to distract us.<br />So while I follow all the tax rules, I long for an existence that is simpler, less bureaucratic. <br />We have accumulated quite a bit in assets and would likely have to forfeit 40% in a renunciation. Given our age, we are not necessarily attractive to other countries. Although we might be able to "buy" our way in.<br />I have learned that there is a thin line separating Patriotism from the Stockholm Syndrome.<br />In all likelihood we will continue to pay tens and tens of thousands of our earnings to feed the beast.<br />To all you ex-pats out there, please accept my apologies. It is a beast I would prefer died of starvation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-59633878355790005082013-03-10T08:46:00.718+01:002013-03-10T08:46:00.718+01:00@Broken, Just catching up here (was laid a bit lo...@Broken, Just catching up here (was laid a bit low recently). Thank you for your comment. Yes, the way the situation is framed right now is infuriating. The equation Expatriate equals tax dodger unless one proves otherwise is deeply unfair but seems so deeply entrenched in the mentality of the homelanders that I despair that we will ever succeed in getting it changed. All the best to you, VictoriaVictoria FERAUGEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16319699673885400472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-26695542090057537292013-02-21T20:34:29.895+01:002013-02-21T20:34:29.895+01:00Thank you so much for your wonderful blog. I'v...Thank you so much for your wonderful blog. I've just discovered this whole mess, and I too, like Rosy, am mad as hell. I've been a UK resident (and naturalized in 2011) for 26 years and have religiously paid my taxes and even, in some cases, NOT partaken in tax avoidance schemes that other UKCs have done so I'm furious at the implication that I'm a tax dodger simply because I choose to live outside of the US. I've read up on what I can, have started approaching US tax gurus (TWO ACCOUNTANTS!! WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO PAY TWO ACCOUNTANTS????) to catch up on my back taxes at which point I will formally relinquish, though it seems that naturalizing has meant I've informally done so. Stupidly, I voted in 2012 because I thought I should, but if I'd known before I wouldn't have. I'm certainly never using my US passport again (I wasn't born in the US, so that's shouldn't throw up any questions at immigration). I want to speak to a lawyer about relinquishing before I do anything else, though. <br /><br />Thank you for taking the time to put together this blog, to inform the ill-informed (homelander and diaspora alike) and I wish you all the best with your own battles, health and otherwise.Inky and the Fishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11070325452109450028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-29707674894175800362012-11-05T08:05:05.825+01:002012-11-05T08:05:05.825+01:00Thank you. I really tried to put some thought int...Thank you. I really tried to put some thought into it and to take off the rose-colored glasses. I have to ask myself honestly why in heaven's name am I still a US citizen after so many years outside the country? I sure don't plan on going back to the US and that has less to do with the US itself and a lot more to do with France being "home."<br /><br />I'll keep thinking on it but I'm favoring renouncing myself.<br /><br />VictoriaVictoria FERAUGEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16319699673885400472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-77754593769538097352012-10-31T22:16:38.246+01:002012-10-31T22:16:38.246+01:00Victoria,
Another well balanced and outstanding po...Victoria,<br />Another well balanced and outstanding post. Whenever you reach the final decision regarding USC, it will be well founded.<br />Good luckP Moorenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-33737458744685192612012-10-15T16:12:19.899+02:002012-10-15T16:12:19.899+02:00Hi Rosy, Thanks so much for stopping by and for y...Hi Rosy, Thanks so much for stopping by and for your comment. I just voted but, like you, I don't have much hope that things will change anytime soon. <br /><br />Loved your comments about France. Yes, the quality of life here is outstandingly good and worth every penny I pay in taxes. :-)<br /><br />Thanks for sharing your experiences and I would love to meet up with you some time if you are in or around the Paris region.<br /><br />All the best,<br /><br />VictoriaVictoria FERAUGEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16319699673885400472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-28492577833133194762012-10-13T11:30:20.899+02:002012-10-13T11:30:20.899+02:00As usual, excellent posts by Victoria and all of t...As usual, excellent posts by Victoria and all of the above. I'm a bit late since I've been discovering this great blog. My name is Rosy and I've decided to be a bit less anonymous now. I guess you can say that I'm mad as Hell and I'm not going to take it anymore. My head isn't as cool as yours, but after 40 years in France and as a dual citizen, I can't believe what the banks - and the US Congress, if that really exists - are doing to us. I also may be renouncing, so I'm not going to vote this year. At any rate, no matter who wins, nothing will change for us. That may be a short-term view, but I'm a US Civ instructor and I've been preparing students for international communication and business (and this profits the US too) and just don't feel like an ingrate or tax evader. At the origin, in the early 70's I could not get a job in the US teaching French and Italian because nobody was learning those languages. It was all Spanish for commercial reasons and German for scientific ones. So I came to France where I had already studied. I liked being able to go out with at night and not being afraid to go home by public transport which wasn't the case in NYC at the time. Then came marriage and the rest. Although I have my gripes with France - I've been precarious all these decades and can only hope for minimal retirement, if I ever get to it, I just can't imagine living with the double taxation which can wipe us out. I'm voting with my feet too. Not happily, but I'm doing it. If anybody feels the same, I'll be glad to communicate. We can share our experience. See you soon ? :-(Rosynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-22341366620675879392012-05-18T09:32:13.704+02:002012-05-18T09:32:13.704+02:00Thank you so much for the encouragement and for re...Thank you so much for the encouragement and for reading the Flophouse. We are not alone - there are millions of people facing this. We need to find our voice and that I think will happen when we all start telling our stories, raising issues and pushing back against some of the disinformation coming out of the homeland.<br /><br />What I wish for however (and I aspire to this whenever I write) is that we try and practice maitri (loving kindness and a wish that all people be well and find peace). This doesn't mean that we stay silent and put up with abuse, it just means that we remember that those who disagree or who argue with us are not evil. Just Me is, for me, is the epitome of what I'm talking about. No matter how angry the conversation becomes or how bitter and angry the article, he always answers with kindness and politeness. Something to emulate because it works. Means that we can have a conversation and not a fight. And the former is what we need to have with the homeland, in my humble opinion.<br /><br />All the best,<br /><br />VictoriaVictoria FERAUGEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16319699673885400472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-11387210132243969612012-05-17T14:30:50.551+02:002012-05-17T14:30:50.551+02:00Just some encouragement to keep on writing what a ...Just some encouragement to keep on writing what a lot of us experience, think, and feel. At least we now know that we are not all alone with these issues and problems.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-21491260662249036262012-05-15T15:37:44.774+02:002012-05-15T15:37:44.774+02:00John, you and my daughter are in similar situation...John, you and my daughter are in similar situations. :-) She also has U.S. citizenship. This year she will be going to the U.S. for a couple of months to work at her grand-father's company but next year she would like to intern at a law enforcement agency there. Neither of these things means that she will have to file a tax return thanks goodness.<br /><br />Amd good for you for registering to vote! If you need some help voting from abroad the Overseas Vote Foundation is a big help.<br /><br />All the best to you,<br /><br />VictoriaVictoria FERAUGEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16319699673885400472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-40703338337429922082012-05-15T13:37:22.480+02:002012-05-15T13:37:22.480+02:00Well, I have to acknowledge that my situation is n...Well, I have to acknowledge that my situation is not as tricky as yours: I'm a French student and I don't earn any wage - except for some part-time jobs in the summer - so, I don't have to file a tax income revenue... Maybe I shouldn't have been so judgmental.<br />My only concern is to register in order to vote for the 2012 election - oh, and more important, find a way to intern in a US consulate or embassy.<br /><br />Best,<br /><br /><br />John Doe<br /><br />John DoeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-14278138611644934892012-05-15T10:24:42.803+02:002012-05-15T10:24:42.803+02:00Dear John, I agree with you that this is pretty de...Dear John, I agree with you that this is pretty depressing. Took me a long time to come to terms with it but I didn't really have much choice. These days the US government is forcing people like me (and perhaps eventually people like you) to make some tough decisions. Choosing to comply if one wishes to remain both French and American is a perfectly reasonable decision but it needs to be made in full knowledge of the facts. Alas one of the unfortunate results of all this is that it's not entirely a personal decision - it involves the family as well. Every year for the past two year *we* (my French husband and me) write a check to the US government and *we" must fill out a stack of forms a centimeter thick (1040, various schedules, the FBAR and the new assets form). The look on my French husband's face when I told him that I had to turn over his information to the IRS was not a pleasant moment in our marriage. So I decided to apply some cold reason to the situation and this is what I came up with. Whatever I eventually decide, it will at least be a thoughtful measured decision.<br /><br />All the best,<br /><br />VictoriaVictoria FERAUGEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16319699673885400472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-46049948366681263622012-05-14T15:54:10.962+02:002012-05-14T15:54:10.962+02:00Interesting post but I believe it's a shame to...Interesting post but I believe it's a shame to look at that through a cost benefit point of view...<br />I'm French AND American - although, I was only born in the US and raised in France after that - and I plan to live and work in the US without giving up either my French or my American citizenship! For me, your analysis is kind of depressing...<br /><br />John DoeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-50912873966864597862012-05-12T15:46:53.856+02:002012-05-12T15:46:53.856+02:00Have to agree with Roger here. Whatever the origi...Have to agree with Roger here. Whatever the original intentions of the US gov, the consequences are falling on us. All efforts to write letters, call Congressmen and women, attend hearings and lobby (ACA and AARO) have come to nothing. In fact, some of the folks in the Treasury department seem to find our efforts rather amusing.Victoria FERAUGEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16319699673885400472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-56544374824644535022012-05-10T19:12:41.172+02:002012-05-10T19:12:41.172+02:00Working Overseas said "I don't think the ...Working Overseas said "I don't think the government is trying to go after Expats, they are just trying to go after the people that have money in foreign bank accounts that still live in the US and expats have another obstacle to go through well living abroad."<br /><br />Whether or not expats were even thought about when this legislation was drafted and enacted, the fact is the cannon is aimed straight at them, and its enfocement literlly destroys them.<br />I wonder why the US government so strongly endorses the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights when it comes to supporing UN resolution 2023 on December 5, 2011 which condemned Eritrea for violating the himnan rights of its cizens living abroad by subjecting them to a 2% income tax on their world wide income, yet the US turns a blind eye to the US taxation of its citizens abroad, which is far more devastating for them. It guess it just matters whose ox is being gored. We worry about the human rights of non-Americans but totally ignore those of our own citizens.RogerChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14860060163148472550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-58679251437627011952012-05-10T18:13:24.398+02:002012-05-10T18:13:24.398+02:00Great post! A lot of people are feeling the same w...Great post! A lot of people are feeling the same way as you! I don't think the government is trying to go after Expats, they are just trying to go after the people that have money in foreign bank accounts that still live in the US and expats have another obstacle to go through well living abroad.Working Overseas Taxhttp://expatriatetaxreturns.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-22140078440359713802012-05-10T15:52:07.159+02:002012-05-10T15:52:07.159+02:00And I just received this Citation du jour from my ...And I just received this Citation du jour from my friend Jean-Jacques which I think is perfect for the occasion:<br /><br />“The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.”<br /> <br />"Le pessimiste se plaint du vent; l'optimiste espère qu'il va changer; le réaliste ajuste les voiles. "<br /> <br />William A. Ward (1921-1994)Victoria FERAUGEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16319699673885400472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-76209356648320844052012-05-10T15:32:53.142+02:002012-05-10T15:32:53.142+02:00Thank you all so much for your comments. I think ...Thank you all so much for your comments. I think Tim is right and there still is some reticence to talk about this though I've heard more from the American diaspora in the past year then in the past 20. <br /><br />@Just Me I'm a great admirer of Roger (and of you too by the way) and I plan to keep writing. If not for my sake but for the Frenchlings.<br /><br />Thank you so much for telling your story, Anonymous and I so appreciate your following the Flophouse. A year ago I would have not have considered for one moment giving up US citizenship but now (and I loved the way you put it) "we have simply grown apart." Not the end of the world and perhaps the start of something better. All the best to you.<br /><br />VictoriaVictoria FERAUGEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16319699673885400472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-4505478638685409852012-05-10T13:25:42.812+02:002012-05-10T13:25:42.812+02:00Another thoughtful, intelligent and well written a...Another thoughtful, intelligent and well written article. Thank you Victoria.<br /><br />I married a Frenchman and have lived in France for 43 years. At that time, acquiring French citzenship was quasi-automatic for foreign spouses of French citizens. Despite the stern warnings and threatening language from the US Dept of State, I became French.<br /><br />When the USA citzenship based tax silliness rose its ugly head once again, I researched, dithered, wrung my hands with anguish, soul searched, discussed with friends and family and made a decision. I renounced.<br /><br />Unlike you, I had just retired and so no need for a back-up plan for alternative job markets. I also hold citizenship of two other countries. Even if I had a desire to do so, I could not afford to return to America as a retiree, the cost of medical insurance is prohibitive and I would not benefit from Medicare nor social security.<br /><br />What I can tell you is that the sky did not fall. I realized that there wasn't much of the American in me anymore. The USA is a wonderful country with amazing people but after so many years in Europe I no longer agree with many of the basic principles that I will refer to as "the American way of life". I am a passionate French woman - Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité. <br /><br />As I am no longer a US Person, I am free to manage my finances without having to consider nor understand US tax policies nor worry about the next bill that US legislators might dream up to punish overseas Americans. I have safeguarded my family as my succession is no longer subject to the whims of Capitol Hill. As I grow older and, one day, less capable to manage my affairs, I am removing an additional burden for myself and my loved ones.<br /><br />I have followed your blog since last Fall and enjoy it very much. It has been reassuring to watch as you have gone through the same thought process that I did. I guess it is our American education and upbringing. <br /><br />I bear no ill feelings towards the USA, we have simply grown apart. I have been a good ambassador for America but there comes a point where you realize that without reciprocity, it just does not make any sense. The USA's treatment of its diaspora is immature. Homelanders are raised to believe that "foreign" is bad rather than embracing the amazing, exciting and wonderful diversity of the global world we live in.<br /> <br />Evolution (with a touch of revolution) lies ahead as the functionning of the US political system and economic model are in great need of an overhaul. <br /><br />I wish you well Victoria and hope that whatever decision you may take ( or none!) will bring you peace and happiness.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-44428509286213206342012-05-10T07:51:52.628+02:002012-05-10T07:51:52.628+02:00As usual Victoria, you say it so very well. It is...As usual Victoria, you say it so very well. It is the tired part I feel too, but then I think of Roger Cronklin and how long he has been on the mission, and I feel a need to help out. <br /><br />Also, I saw this little video trailer, and I see we have some other little person on a mission trying to make a difference, and feel I should continue doing what I can...<br /><br />Fools on the Hill<br /><br />http://youtu.be/jj-thMVvJywJust Menoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-19743762148641491972012-05-10T07:23:50.622+02:002012-05-10T07:23:50.622+02:00You have put into words some of the things I wonde...You have put into words some of the things I wonder about. Thanks<br />PatAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-10002122062549624462012-05-10T05:02:07.390+02:002012-05-10T05:02:07.390+02:00One thing I'll say is a lot more people are co...One thing I'll say is a lot more people are considering renouncing or giving up their green cards than is commonly thought its just a lot of people don't want to talk about it publicaly. My sense is at some point you have to vote with your feet. The situation might get better for your kids someday and they don't really have to make the choice with same urgency. I guess one question is have you thought about when you get French citizenship are going to consider that a relinquishing act or do you still plan to stick around and vote in November. I also believe if you vote with your feet you should insist on your name being published in the Federal Register.Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03894651289037073128noreply@blogger.com