tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post1612057461719336577..comments2023-09-23T11:16:00.352+02:00Comments on The Franco-American Flophouse has moved: The American Diaspora: Lobbying versus ProtestVictoria FERAUGEhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16319699673885400472noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-7265069042135830372013-04-07T15:27:14.956+02:002013-04-07T15:27:14.956+02:00http://maplesandbox.ca/2013/aca-blasts-fatca/#comm...http://maplesandbox.ca/2013/aca-blasts-fatca/#comment-6104<br /><br />http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/04/05/american-citizens-abroad-blasts-fatca-in-comment-to-house-working-groups/<br /><br />http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/04/07/nyt-article-overseas-finances-can-trip-up-americans-abroad/<br /><br />-JeffAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-80350655072245408982013-04-07T15:26:03.584+02:002013-04-07T15:26:03.584+02:00Lobby v. Protest:
All of the above. Lobby Congre...Lobby v. Protest:<br /><br />All of the above. Lobby Congress (AOW, Americans Abroad Caucus, ACA, letters to legislators). Lobby foreign legislatures.<br /><br />Protest as vocally as possible. <br /><br />But also, prepare lawsuits, preferably in foreign courts, on civil rights grounds. <br /><br />Jefferson D TomasAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-55593146032603371082013-03-30T11:59:50.770+01:002013-03-30T11:59:50.770+01:00All those willing to lobby should go to
http://am...All those willing to lobby should go to<br /><br />http://americansabroad.org/issues/taxation/have-your-say-tax-reform/<br /><br />for information on a once in a life-time opportunityJanetnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-44406178941655545362013-03-18T17:22:50.745+01:002013-03-18T17:22:50.745+01:00@Sally, I'm not sure either that protest will...@Sally, I'm not sure either that protest will work. The problem with doing something visible and obnoxious (the only thing that is likely to get their attention) is that we just might provoke homelanders into treating us even worse. Could it get worse? Maybe. Phil Hodgen seem to think it will and he counsels us to renounce before it is too late.<br /><br />@Whitekat, Thank you for sharing your story. Yeah, I would have cancelled the appointment too. Proof of life abroad since you were two years old? How ridiculous. I agree we need another word for "secret American". <br /><br />@P. Moore, Thank you. I really appreciate your kind words. Victoria FERAUGEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16319699673885400472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-8947233249677515552013-03-18T17:04:08.983+01:002013-03-18T17:04:08.983+01:00@sally
I can totally relate to what you're say...@sally<br />I can totally relate to what you're saying, although I have not renounced yet. A tiny part of me (maybe the Pollyanna) thinks that this situation that makes life impossible for USP's abroad will somehow resolve itself. Then there's the realization that my US citizenship is like a gangrenous limb that needs severing and any error in judgement may result in my death. Phantom pains after the fact are another issue. The limb may be gone, but the memory of that limb and emotional scars last forever. <br />@Whitekat, I would call you a 'conscientious tax objector'. bubblebustinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01789474207408205280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-15783420192925807232013-03-18T10:28:51.998+01:002013-03-18T10:28:51.998+01:00Even though I have been following this issue for s...Even though I have been following this issue for sometime now, I continue to be amazed by the whole mess this has caused. Victoria, I am still sicked by the big fat cheque you had to send with your last US tax return. I am sure it made your husband 'deliriously happy' as well. Of course, for you and many others, that is far from the end of this ridiculous situation. As for Canada, I am waiting to see what the government will do, but if they agree to an IGA with the US, I too will be happy to donate to any legal challenge.<br /><br />In the meantime, I applaud how you continue to write so eloquently on this subject and am encouraged to see that many are noticing.P. Moorenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-34410052938105475202013-03-17T23:38:43.001+01:002013-03-17T23:38:43.001+01:00Hi Victoria,
I love your blog, and this post in p...Hi Victoria,<br /><br />I love your blog, and this post in particular. I am one of those 'accidental Americans'. My Canadian born parents left Canada in the 50's so that my father could pursue a career oportunity in the USA. I was born there, and when my parents separated I moved back to Canada with my mother when I was less than 2 years of age. <br /><br />I have never thought of myself as 'American', since I have lived approximately 1/2 century in Canada, and have had little contact with my father. Until a few months ago, I had no clue that USA had a unique policy of citizenship-based taxation.<br /><br />Like 'Anonymous', at one point I felt I had no choice but to comply in order to get out from under the shackles of US control. I do not have a SSN, so I made an appointment with the US embassy to obtain one, and was told I needed proof of my life abroad. Having to dig up decades of old school records as evidence of a life somewhere outside USA, first made me cry, then made me so angry that I cancelled the embassy appointment. <br /><br />Does this make me a 'secret American'? I don't think it does. I post often at IBS, respond to articles, email politicians, and talk to anyone who will listen to me about USA's immoral invasion.<br />I am secret, only so far as IRS and my bank are concerned - at least I hope I still am. I think we need another term for people like me. WhiteKatnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-5800994802437876842013-03-17T22:51:28.079+01:002013-03-17T22:51:28.079+01:00Protest? Do we really think that will help?
While...Protest? Do we really think that will help?<br /><br />While it's true that the ignoramuses that passed FATCA probably didn't realize what they were doing to us, that ignorance just proves that they DO NOT CARE about Americans who live abroad. And why should they care. Many Americans who live abroad cannot vote, and those who can are spread so thin about the voting districts that "their" representatives couldn't care less.<br /><br />Even if the FATCA mess does get fixed, it'll just be a few years and and some similar nonsense will come again. The point is that US politicians have no motivation whatsoever to treat expats fairly and plenty motivation to cast expats as scapegoats.<br /><br />Essentially, they do not want us. The only solution is to get your house in order IRS-wise (if you must) and renounce your citizenship. They do not want us.<br /><br />The fact that FATCA was passed at all convinced me of that. I'm coming up on the 2nd anniversary of my renunciation of US citizenship. It was the only logical thing to do.<br /><br />But still it hurts. Emotionally, I still can't come to terms that the promise of "liberty and justice for all" from the Pledge of Allegiance I recited so often in my youth does not apply to me.<br /><br />But it does not. FATCA proves it.Sallynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-23475833859812248402013-03-17T16:53:41.759+01:002013-03-17T16:53:41.759+01:00@Victoria,
I like your comment about the effects o...@Victoria,<br />I like your comment about the effects of all of this on American migration. As a matter of fact, I left a similar comment for you on Brock before seeing your here. I wrote: "The genie that’s being uncorked here is forever going to change the meaning of what it means to be a US person living abroad and could very well see the end of American global migration on any significant scale. What does that mean to the future of American society, culture, and influence when an American’s experience of the world is on a ‘day pass’? What will it mean to the rest of the world? It can’t be something good." :-)<br />I would love it if we could explore this further. If countries change their laws in order to accommodate the US in the implementation of FATCA and as a result engage in practices that discriminate against USP's, wouldn't it be ironic if the US accused these countries of passing laws that result in the discrimination of Americans? bubblebustinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01789474207408205280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-9208880369594921762013-03-17T16:44:58.150+01:002013-03-17T16:44:58.150+01:00@Janet, I asked Allison Christians about the possi...@Janet, I asked Allison Christians about the possibility of litigation. Her response is in the comments:<br /><br />http://taxpol.blogspot.fr/2013/03/irs-brushes-aside-constitution-to-make.html<br /><br />Not likely to work, she says. <br /><br />What is possible (in fact I think it is almost certain) is for duals in other countries to sue their local governments if they try to implement FATCA. The Canadians fighting this will do it. I think EU dual citizens will as well. Not sure about Asia.<br /><br />I've been thinking about ideas for protest that are visible and "sticky." We need a simple compelling message and a campaign like the one AARO and FAWCO led in 1975. <br /><br />http://www.aaro.org/about-aaro/the-teabag-campaignVictoria FERAUGEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16319699673885400472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-1772358866348349912013-03-17T14:45:37.251+01:002013-03-17T14:45:37.251+01:00The local "Masion du Tourisme" provides ...The local "Masion du Tourisme" provides access to the internet.<br />I cried when I read the posting from Anonymous. I grew up in NYC in the 1940's and 50's (the McCarty era). At the beginning of each school day, we recited "The Pledge of Allegiance". This pledge ends with the words "and justice for all". These words are deeply engrained in my conscience. Justice was not what Anonymous received. Many, many more Americans living abroad will face the same injustice if the IRS is allowed to continue its witch-hunt and its application of draconian punishments.<br /><br />A protest will only be successful if it is highly visible and uncomfortable. I doubt that we could mobize many people to demonstrate in front of American embassies and consultates around the world but is there any chance we could take our case to court? Could we interest the ACLU in representing us? What about the International Court of Justice or the European Court of Human Rights? I know the US doesn't accept the rulings of these two courts but it would publicize our plight. Has the Issac Brock Society already looked into this?<br /><br />Is it at all helpful to send a statement to the House Ways and Means Committee?Janetnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-33753438432983358542013-03-17T13:12:12.146+01:002013-03-17T13:12:12.146+01:00I completely empathize!! I will have lost over tw...I completely empathize!! I will have lost over two years' salary just to pay tax prepare to become compliant enough to expatriate. I share your loathing of U.S. arrogance and complete indifference to all the collateral damage they've caused; I can't wait to finally put all this behind me in what will have eaten four years of my life.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-17122921487902345732013-03-17T09:24:38.446+01:002013-03-17T09:24:38.446+01:00@Jefferson, Hey, I think we just missed each othe...@Jefferson, Hey, I think we just missed each other. I was over at Isaac Brock not two minutes ago reading your piece and offering to put something together about France. You bet I can do that and let me see about other Francophone countries' constitutions.Victoria FERAUGEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16319699673885400472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-8380396706392425242013-03-17T08:41:26.391+01:002013-03-17T08:41:26.391+01:00@anonymous, I wouldn't use that analogy but I...@anonymous, I wouldn't use that analogy but I do think that a great injustice is being done here. Roger Conklin has said (and I think he's on to something) that what the American and public are levying against us is a "sin tax." Yes, they want to hassle and punish us for the crime of abandoning the homeland. What homelanders should consider is that this is a an attack on emigration and the right to leave one's country. If this continues will they or their children be able to leave the country and participate fully in globalization or will Americans be "captive citizens" - forced to stay in the US because no one wants to hire them, marry them or offer them access to basic local services like having a checking account. <br /><br />@bubblebustin, Hey, good to see you. I was over at Isaac Brock yesterday trying to catch up. I missed the one you mention in your comment. Heading over there right now to have a look. Victoria FERAUGEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16319699673885400472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-11726676650808909162013-03-17T08:23:25.306+01:002013-03-17T08:23:25.306+01:00@victoria
Wow, the French constitutional case is ...@victoria<br /><br />Wow, the French constitutional case is rather complicated because it refers to several historic documents. Unlike the UDHR, Swiss, or EU Charters, the elements we need about origin discrimination are spread about rather than being in one place. <br /><br /><br />http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/connaissance/constitution.asp#titre_11B<br /><br />PRÉAMBULE<br /><br />"Le peuple français proclame solennellement son attachement aux Droits de l’Homme et aux principes de la souveraineté nationale tels qu’ils ont été définis par la Déclaration de 1789, confirmée et complétée par le préambule de la Constitution de 1946, ainsi qu’aux droits et devoirs définis dans la Charte de l’environnement de 2004."<br /><br /><br />Art 1 <br /><br />"La France est une République indivisible, laïque, démocratique et sociale. Elle assure l’égalité devant la loi de tous les citoyens sans distinction <strong>d’origine</strong>, de race ou de religion"<br /><br />"Chacun a le devoir de travailler et le droit d’obtenir un emploi. <strong>Nul ne peut être lésé, dans son travail ou son emploi, en raison de ses origines</strong>, de ses opinions ou de ses croyances."<br /><br />DÉCLARATION DES DROITS DE L’HOMME<br />ET DU CITOYEN DE 1789<br /><br />"Article Ier<br /><br />Les hommes naissent et demeurent libres et égaux en droits. Les distinctions sociales ne peuvent être fondées que sur l’utilité commune.<br /><br />Article II<br /><br />Le but de toute association politique est la conservation des droits naturels et imprescriptibles de l’Homme. Ces droits sont la liberté, la propriété, la sûreté et la résistance à l’oppression.<br />"<br /><br />Still, can we build a summary to put in http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/03/16/national-origin-discrimination-is-prohibited-by-many-constitutions-charters-and-declarations-around-the-world/<br />???<br /><br />Jefferson D TomasAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-54207786866037441132013-03-17T03:44:40.760+01:002013-03-17T03:44:40.760+01:00@Victoria
You probably didn't miss this, but i...@Victoria<br />You probably didn't miss this, but in case you have:<br />http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/03/14/house-ways-and-means-committee-discussing-tax-reform-at-full-speed-now/<br />One more way of getting our voices from abroad heard.bubblebustinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01789474207408205280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-62014191711782857292013-03-17T00:45:47.630+01:002013-03-17T00:45:47.630+01:00Today's Secretive American expats are analogou...Today's Secretive American expats are analogous to the runaway slaves of the 19th century.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-29575411204342200642013-03-16T10:54:39.308+01:002013-03-16T10:54:39.308+01:00@anonymous, Thank you, thank you, thank you for y...@anonymous, Thank you, thank you, thank you for your comment. You sum up so beautifully the experience so many of us are living. Oh do I empathize with your guilt. The checks I have had to write over the past couple of years to the US Treasury (plus the fees for help preparing my returns) and the conversations I've had to have with my spouse left me feeling so bad. <br /><br />And I hear you about "polite deputations." This is not a cocktail party - this is the Diaspora Tax War of 2012-2013. When will we all learn that being overly polite is getting us nowhere? <br /><br />I still have a strong grudge against Democrats Abroad that is so strong that I have to refrain from talking about them on the blog. Some of the things they've said had me whispering to myself "collaborateurs".....Victoria FERAUGEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16319699673885400472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-84315682261050507952013-03-16T10:40:39.632+01:002013-03-16T10:40:39.632+01:00@Christophe, I want the traction to come from them...@Christophe, I want the traction to come from them. I want to see more direct action. I want and I NEED to feel that I'm able to do something in my own defense that is more than just writing letters or signing petitions. When I have had the impression that I was being asked to kick back, write a check and passively let others to act on my behalf it just killed me. I had much the same experience as Janet but with a different organization. That's when I started writing about it in my blog and why I ended up as a contributor at Isaac Brock.<br /><br />I'd like folks to consider that maybe the reason people don't want to sign petitions is because they don't see it as a satisfactory and effective way of getting heard. So enough already. Time to explore other options.<br /><br />@Tim. My .02 would be that we try to pull together a delegation. The ideal would be an Accidental American, a dual who is a naturalized EU citizen, a European citizen who resided in the US and is a former or current Green Card holder, the spouse of a U.S. person, and a long-term EU resident originally from the US. I could represent the last.Victoria FERAUGEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16319699673885400472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-53562267924294296112013-03-16T09:24:29.658+01:002013-03-16T09:24:29.658+01:00I am an accidental US person - and have lived outs...I am an accidental US person - and have lived outside the US since I was a baby.<br /><br />I owe no US taxes, but because of the nightmarish US laws about 'foreign' bank accounts and 'foreign trusts', I've had to pay extortionate legal and accounting fees out of my non-US family's non-US savings in order to<br />become 'compliant' - because I felt strongly that I could not live with US citizenship - and be subjected to arrogant US might-makes-right any longer than forced to. The fees I paid far exceeded my annual earnings. I work multiple jobs, poorly paid, irregular hours, no benefits, no security. At my current rate, it will take me more than 3 years to earn what I paid to prove that I owed the US nothing and be able to renounce. For my last simple return, the local chain of preparers quoted up to 1000. for a 1040 and 3520 plus 3520A. Another wants a signed letter of engagement - but will provide no estimate of cost and the agreement has no limits.<br /><br />I cannot stand to be an American for one second more. Through the torment of the last two years, I have come to loathe the US, the US tax lawyer and the accounting firm who made major errors that even I could see - but who charged me incredible fees regardless. I came very close several times to concluding that suicide was my only option in order to be free. Or that maybe I should leave my family in order to wall them off from the US threat. I could not eat or sleep. I did not know before about FBARs and the US threat, but inadvertently, I was the cause of our financial loss, and I will have to live with that for the rest of our lives together. My spouse does not rebuke me, but sometimes questions whether we really had to spend the money. I told him that it was a ransom we had to pay so that the US could not hold me hostage forever. I will never forgive or forget what is happening, and neither will my non-US family. There is no way I could remain a US citizen and live with myself. I could not justify to myself or anyone else why I would remain in any relationship to a government and country who would treat us this way, and who continues to, regardless of our stories, our lobbying and the evidence reported by the Taxpayer Advocate.<br /><br />It is only because of others like me on the web, plus the Taxpayer Advocate, that I had any hope at all and survived this.<br /><br />Polite deputations do not do my and other's torment justice. The US will not readily let us renounce or stop asserting its claims and power over our lives and the live of our family - even though they are not US persons.<br /><br />If Democrats Abroad have not been successful in getting their very own personal President and party in power to see that what is being done is very wrong, then any polite lobbying is doomed to failure. I don't believe that the US will willingly strike any commission in order even to pretend to hear us, much less do anything to redress the wrongs we are suffering. Some Democrats Abroad have even echoed the words of the IRS and Treasury that this is the price we must pay for the 'privilege' or 'choice' of living outside the US.<br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-26363427390838326712013-03-16T03:54:51.003+01:002013-03-16T03:54:51.003+01:00a quick reply to Christophe before I leave for a w...a quick reply to Christophe before I leave for a week of skiing and no internet access -<br />Both the ACA and the AARO posted a link to the petition on their home page. ACA informed me that they needed all their time and resources to prepare for OAW 2013. At OAW 2013, AARO, ACA and FAWCO worked very hard lobbying for the RBT proposal on behalf of all Americans living abroad. <br />I will continue to inform and ask any American I meet if I may contact them when the ACA requests its members to show their support for RBT.Janetnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-47632551053298550742013-03-16T01:39:17.532+01:002013-03-16T01:39:17.532+01:00I have information that a committee of the EU Parl...I have information that a committee of the EU Parliament in Brussels will be holding a hearing on these issues soon(No date has been set however). I think it is important that someone who is a US Person EU Permanent Resident/Citizen attend this hearing as a witness not just have bankers and tax lawyers. Any prospective volunteers I can pass on to someone in Brussels.Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03894651289037073128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-24725510077869606722013-03-15T21:08:37.575+01:002013-03-15T21:08:37.575+01:00Thank you for pointing out the 1975 Tea Bag campai...Thank you for pointing out the 1975 Tea Bag campaign.What a great idea! I moved to Germany in 1972. California, my last state of residence, allowed me to vote. The procedure was very time consuming. An absentee ballot had to be requested by mail. The ballot, which arrived only a week or two before Election Day, had to be notarized at an American embassy or consulate to validate it. Mail to and from the US was very slow at that time. I doubt if my ballot ever made it to California on time. I eventually stopped voting and only started voting again after Clinton signed the National Voter Registration Act into law in 1993. Now I understand why some of the more recent expats tell me that we are only able to vote because we have to pay taxes.<br /><br />It would be great if you came up with a<br />"sticky" message. <br />Janetnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-37024068440032115102013-03-15T20:28:25.300+01:002013-03-15T20:28:25.300+01:00@Blaze,
The harassment and hassle folks like you...@Blaze, <br /><br />The harassment and hassle folks like you (those who gave up U.S. citizenship years ago) are living is a travesty. I agree that you shouldn't have to do a damn thing on the U.S. side and I hope you don't have to sue the Canadian government.<br /><br />But if you have to, I'll be cheering you on and I would be happy (nay I would be delighted) to donate to any fund you might set up to fight this in court. <br /><br />I'll be watching the Maple Sandbox for more news<br />http://maplesandbox.ca/<br /><br /><br /><br />Victoria FERAUGEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16319699673885400472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2424131704277823220.post-79353665616625357362013-03-15T19:05:40.124+01:002013-03-15T19:05:40.124+01:00I call FATCA Foreign Attack To Control All by Unit...I call FATCA Foreign Attack To Control All by United States of Arrogance.<br /><br />"Hippy-dippy migrants" is a mild term for how Americans think of anyone who dares to live outside US.<br /><br />Elected officials are far more likely to call us "tax cheats," and "traitors."<br /><br />I will not personally lobby US politicians. US Consulate tole me clearly, directly and firmly I was "permanently and irrevocably" relinquishing US citizenship when I became a citizen of Canada 40 years ago.<br /><br />I will not allow US to reclaim me and my money now that I am in retirement. Contacting US politicians would be too much like agreeing I am still a "US person."<br /><br />I will continue to lobby Canadian government to ensure my rights as a Canadian citizen are honored and respected.<br /><br />You can be assured there WILL be a lawsuit if Canadian banks ask where I was born or demand consent to release information to US.<br /><br />Another leading constitutional lawyer told three of us over a year ago we have grounds for a lawsuit if banks violate Canadian banking, privacy and human rights laws.<br /><br />If the government changes those laws, we have grounds for a lawsuit against the government.<br /><br />I know many others will join in if that becomes necessary. Check out maplesandbox.ca for more information as things progress.Blazehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12871285356307431578noreply@blogger.com